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	<title>Comments on: The Inconsequential Game Over: Dying for a Change</title>
	<atom:link href="http://hellmode.com/2010/07/12/the-inconsequential-game-over-dying-for-a-change/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://hellmode.com/2010/07/12/the-inconsequential-game-over-dying-for-a-change/</link>
	<description>We write about video games.</description>
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		<title>By: Eugene</title>
		<link>http://hellmode.com/2010/07/12/the-inconsequential-game-over-dying-for-a-change/comment-page-1/#comment-1069</link>
		<dc:creator>Eugene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hellmode.com/?p=411#comment-1069</guid>
		<description>Check out the Flash game &quot;You Only Live Once&quot; for some really clever and funny commentary on dying in video games vs reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check out the Flash game &#8220;You Only Live Once&#8221; for some really clever and funny commentary on dying in video games vs reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Eugene</title>
		<link>http://hellmode.com/2010/07/12/the-inconsequential-game-over-dying-for-a-change/comment-page-1/#comment-1068</link>
		<dc:creator>Eugene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hellmode.com/?p=411#comment-1068</guid>
		<description>Hah, the first time I played Heavy Rain, I got the girl killed in the part where the apartment complex catches on fire.  Even though I was aware of how the game was designed to play, I still expected to restart.  When the game kept going and just moved on, that was an eye opener.  I was immediately reminded of all the dangerous things I let the characters do and how close to death I put them...and how horrifyingly reckless that was of me. :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hah, the first time I played Heavy Rain, I got the girl killed in the part where the apartment complex catches on fire.  Even though I was aware of how the game was designed to play, I still expected to restart.  When the game kept going and just moved on, that was an eye opener.  I was immediately reminded of all the dangerous things I let the characters do and how close to death I put them&#8230;and how horrifyingly reckless that was of me. :D</p>
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		<title>By: J. David Norton</title>
		<link>http://hellmode.com/2010/07/12/the-inconsequential-game-over-dying-for-a-change/comment-page-1/#comment-1067</link>
		<dc:creator>J. David Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:26:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hellmode.com/?p=411#comment-1067</guid>
		<description>Something I wanted to add.

Games have the hardest time when it comes to creation. If you get to a word you don&#039;t understand in a book, the book doesn&#039;t close until you find a dictionary. For a game, the players ability is what drives the narrative. You can literally play a game that you CANNOT beat. I&#039;m pretty sure my mother could never get through Halo CE if she were ever to try. But even someone who can&#039;t read could have the story told to them, and unless you are blind you can get through a movie. You might not pick up on the subtext of either of these mediums to truly &quot;get&quot; the piece, but you&#039;d have a rudimentary understanding of it. That&#039;s what easier difficulty levels afford us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something I wanted to add.</p>
<p>Games have the hardest time when it comes to creation. If you get to a word you don&#8217;t understand in a book, the book doesn&#8217;t close until you find a dictionary. For a game, the players ability is what drives the narrative. You can literally play a game that you CANNOT beat. I&#8217;m pretty sure my mother could never get through Halo CE if she were ever to try. But even someone who can&#8217;t read could have the story told to them, and unless you are blind you can get through a movie. You might not pick up on the subtext of either of these mediums to truly &#8220;get&#8221; the piece, but you&#8217;d have a rudimentary understanding of it. That&#8217;s what easier difficulty levels afford us.</p>
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		<title>By: J. David Norton</title>
		<link>http://hellmode.com/2010/07/12/the-inconsequential-game-over-dying-for-a-change/comment-page-1/#comment-1066</link>
		<dc:creator>J. David Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:58:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hellmode.com/?p=411#comment-1066</guid>
		<description>Death is the best way to get at meaningful choices in games. Unfortunately it is easiest thing to compromise in the face of the industry. Are you trying to make a product that will affect peoples lives? Or are you trying to make something that people will want, and beyond that, play for the longest time possible?

I was so excited for Heavy Rain when you could lose characters at any time. I came close to buying a PS3 for that game. But the inconsequentiality of it all keeps me on my PC. 

Since I was just reading your article on Starcraft I&#039;ll use an example from SC2. There are a few choices you get to make as you go along the story line, because, of course, making choices is cool! At least these weren&#039;t tied to a morality mechanic... Anyways, each choice changes the game a bit, but they all resolve in your favour. The only way you should be making these choices is due to how you want the next missions to play out. But other than that they&#039;re meaningless. Unknowable information comes to the fore and it turns out, hey, great choice! 

I&#039;m  fine with games putting check points after each turn. As long as they give me an option to turn it off. Diablo II certainly did it well. It&#039;d be hard to make a game that you could sell to everyone if you permanently died while you were trying to get the hang of the game. 

I think achievements can play a role here. If the game says you&#039;ll get a reward for beating the game in under 3 hours without dying, you know it&#039;s possible. This gives you something to shoot for and notoriety if you do it. I say, give us the speed runs and the hardcore modes. Always.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Death is the best way to get at meaningful choices in games. Unfortunately it is easiest thing to compromise in the face of the industry. Are you trying to make a product that will affect peoples lives? Or are you trying to make something that people will want, and beyond that, play for the longest time possible?</p>
<p>I was so excited for Heavy Rain when you could lose characters at any time. I came close to buying a PS3 for that game. But the inconsequentiality of it all keeps me on my PC. </p>
<p>Since I was just reading your article on Starcraft I&#8217;ll use an example from SC2. There are a few choices you get to make as you go along the story line, because, of course, making choices is cool! At least these weren&#8217;t tied to a morality mechanic&#8230; Anyways, each choice changes the game a bit, but they all resolve in your favour. The only way you should be making these choices is due to how you want the next missions to play out. But other than that they&#8217;re meaningless. Unknowable information comes to the fore and it turns out, hey, great choice! </p>
<p>I&#8217;m  fine with games putting check points after each turn. As long as they give me an option to turn it off. Diablo II certainly did it well. It&#8217;d be hard to make a game that you could sell to everyone if you permanently died while you were trying to get the hang of the game. </p>
<p>I think achievements can play a role here. If the game says you&#8217;ll get a reward for beating the game in under 3 hours without dying, you know it&#8217;s possible. This gives you something to shoot for and notoriety if you do it. I say, give us the speed runs and the hardcore modes. Always.</p>
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		<title>By: Kezia</title>
		<link>http://hellmode.com/2010/07/12/the-inconsequential-game-over-dying-for-a-change/comment-page-1/#comment-990</link>
		<dc:creator>Kezia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 03:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hellmode.com/?p=411#comment-990</guid>
		<description>I think the reason we don&#039;t see this yet is because even with our awesome new PC&#039;s and PS3&#039;s and 360s, gaming still hasn&#039;t come very far if you don&#039;t look at the graphics. 

Games like Mass Effect 2 claim that the story develops based on decisions your character makes, when in truth its more like a mad-lib where you toss in names and verbs.

Video games are like interactive storybooks for me, and I would love to see truth death for all characters in every game, but that would require an extreme amount of hardware power since the storyline of the entire game could be changed if key character was killed too early on. It would require game designers to put a lot more effort into the actual game and not what it looks like.

I imagine we&#039;ll be waiting another 10-20 years before true death is in out vidya.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the reason we don&#8217;t see this yet is because even with our awesome new PC&#8217;s and PS3&#8242;s and 360s, gaming still hasn&#8217;t come very far if you don&#8217;t look at the graphics. </p>
<p>Games like Mass Effect 2 claim that the story develops based on decisions your character makes, when in truth its more like a mad-lib where you toss in names and verbs.</p>
<p>Video games are like interactive storybooks for me, and I would love to see truth death for all characters in every game, but that would require an extreme amount of hardware power since the storyline of the entire game could be changed if key character was killed too early on. It would require game designers to put a lot more effort into the actual game and not what it looks like.</p>
<p>I imagine we&#8217;ll be waiting another 10-20 years before true death is in out vidya.</p>
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		<title>By: Chr156r33n</title>
		<link>http://hellmode.com/2010/07/12/the-inconsequential-game-over-dying-for-a-change/comment-page-1/#comment-767</link>
		<dc:creator>Chr156r33n</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hellmode.com/?p=411#comment-767</guid>
		<description>&quot;War has never been so much fun.&quot; Who d&#039;ya reckon they were trying to piss off with that then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;War has never been so much fun.&#8221; Who d&#8217;ya reckon they were trying to piss off with that then?</p>
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		<title>By: Sol Invictus</title>
		<link>http://hellmode.com/2010/07/12/the-inconsequential-game-over-dying-for-a-change/comment-page-1/#comment-763</link>
		<dc:creator>Sol Invictus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:17:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hellmode.com/?p=411#comment-763</guid>
		<description>Oh yeah, I remember Cannon Fodder. I watched a video of the game earlier today. I used to get so attached to my recruits that it felt wrong to treat them for what they were: expendable. They were expendable, truly, and the game carried a great social message about how young men join the army in droves, only to be thrown away like cannon fodder. My hills were littered with the graves of the recruits by the time I was done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yeah, I remember Cannon Fodder. I watched a video of the game earlier today. I used to get so attached to my recruits that it felt wrong to treat them for what they were: expendable. They were expendable, truly, and the game carried a great social message about how young men join the army in droves, only to be thrown away like cannon fodder. My hills were littered with the graves of the recruits by the time I was done.</p>
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		<title>By: Chr156r33n</title>
		<link>http://hellmode.com/2010/07/12/the-inconsequential-game-over-dying-for-a-change/comment-page-1/#comment-761</link>
		<dc:creator>Chr156r33n</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hellmode.com/?p=411#comment-761</guid>
		<description>Does anyone remember Cannon Fodder? Your squad mates all have persistent ranks and I found that after a while you&#039;d become attached to your starting recruits. I took to lamenting the death&#039;s of my veteran squad mates and actually having less regard for the green horns as they filed over the hill, ready to plunge themselves into the increasingly blood thirsty conflict. The number of recruits waiting became your extra lives and you were reminded at your success (or lack of) when the rolling hills of your base become covered in the graves of the fallen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone remember Cannon Fodder? Your squad mates all have persistent ranks and I found that after a while you&#8217;d become attached to your starting recruits. I took to lamenting the death&#8217;s of my veteran squad mates and actually having less regard for the green horns as they filed over the hill, ready to plunge themselves into the increasingly blood thirsty conflict. The number of recruits waiting became your extra lives and you were reminded at your success (or lack of) when the rolling hills of your base become covered in the graves of the fallen.</p>
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		<title>By: EchoNull</title>
		<link>http://hellmode.com/2010/07/12/the-inconsequential-game-over-dying-for-a-change/comment-page-1/#comment-749</link>
		<dc:creator>EchoNull</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 02:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hellmode.com/?p=411#comment-749</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s room for compromise between the two extremes. The Roguelike genre has a tradition of permadeath, but is structured to make getting back in the game quick and enjoyable. 

Spelunky is an amalgamation of Roguelikes -- with the typical permadeath and random level generation -- and action platformers. With a strict time limit (an instakill monster spawns in almost each of the 16 stages after 2.5 minutes, and there&#039;s a prize for beating the whole thing in under 10 minutes) each run doesn&#039;t take much of a time investment, so every moment becomes more valuable as you play it. And yet, as soon as a Yeti bounces you off a wall into a set of spikes, you want to dive right back in.

The character dies, but the player gains the experience necessary to improve at the game and eventually win.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s room for compromise between the two extremes. The Roguelike genre has a tradition of permadeath, but is structured to make getting back in the game quick and enjoyable. </p>
<p>Spelunky is an amalgamation of Roguelikes &#8212; with the typical permadeath and random level generation &#8212; and action platformers. With a strict time limit (an instakill monster spawns in almost each of the 16 stages after 2.5 minutes, and there&#8217;s a prize for beating the whole thing in under 10 minutes) each run doesn&#8217;t take much of a time investment, so every moment becomes more valuable as you play it. And yet, as soon as a Yeti bounces you off a wall into a set of spikes, you want to dive right back in.</p>
<p>The character dies, but the player gains the experience necessary to improve at the game and eventually win.</p>
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		<title>By: Chronoludic Podcast Episode 2: The Rationale of Death &#124; Chronoludic</title>
		<link>http://hellmode.com/2010/07/12/the-inconsequential-game-over-dying-for-a-change/comment-page-1/#comment-716</link>
		<dc:creator>Chronoludic Podcast Episode 2: The Rationale of Death &#124; Chronoludic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jul 2010 12:59:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hellmode.com/?p=411#comment-716</guid>
		<description>[...] getting to talk to our benevolent rulers (j/k) but also quite serendipitous  since they recently posted an article that ties in very well to the focus of this month&#8217;s &#8216;cast: Death in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] getting to talk to our benevolent rulers (j/k) but also quite serendipitous  since they recently posted an article that ties in very well to the focus of this month&#8217;s &#8216;cast: Death in [...]</p>
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